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Should we proceed with the velodrome?
This is a terrible idea. Kill it on sight 48%  48%  [ 64 ]
This is a fantastic idea/We should proceed if the funding works 52%  52%  [ 69 ]
Total votes : 133
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:32 pm 
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Rick Malboeuf wrote:

Main Street Leisure Center has been losing money for 20 Years, to date has cost taxpayers over $ 6 million and continues to cost taxpayers over $300K a year, New fitness center /swimming pool in Milton Sports Center annual operating deficit projected to be around $500k , Milton Centre for the Arts projected annual operating deficit $ 600K -$750 K, and finally our limosine style transit system that will cost taxpayers over $ 2 million this year and with the introduction of the 3 new routes at the end of the year that cost to taxpayers will increase to $ 2.7 million in 2013.


How about parks and roads, are those operating at a profit?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:48 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... ADIEwgj-os

Track riding at ADT Center in Carson LA, going on simultaneously with infield events (soccer, basketball. or volleyball I think)

I think it would be great if we had some of Canada's Olympic team training in Milton - living even. It would be fantastic to have more positive role models in town for kids to look up to! I personally think it's the coolest thing ever to have Chris Hadfield as a role model but more, and a diversity of them would be fabulous!


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:38 pm 
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I don't doubt that a velodrome could provide a positive outlet or be a 'productive place to go', or that some olympic caliber athletes in town would be the coolest thing ever, or even that it might be rather less BORING with a velodrome than without one.

But no amount of wishful thinking will turn this albatross into a money-maker, let alone a break-even project. You need to take the rose coloured glass off on that one.

Of course it's a feel-good project and yeah, it probably won't be boring. By the way, there are no doubt boatloads of other projects that would feel good and aren't boring. Should that really be the yardstick for decision making at council these days?!! :?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:51 pm 
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The ADT Center in Carson is profitable. I am not wishful thinking. I read the business case and have no reason to doubt it. No "feel good" is not what this is about, nor have any of the "pro-velodrome" councillors who have posted their thoughts here argued that they voted for it because it was a "feel good project". You have misinterpretted my comments on increasing positve role models in the community. It's never the core goal when evaluating construction of any facility like the velodrome but it's certainly a positive side effect. My comments regarding "boring" were also not specifically directed at the velodrome project but at the traditional recreational centers like the leisure center and sports center that Rick seems to infer are not successful because they do not make money.i


Last edited by freemantrailfamily on Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:07 pm 
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freemantrailfamily wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=8ADIEwgj-os

Track riding at ADT Center in Carson LA, going on simultaneously with infield events (soccer, basketball. or volleyball I think)

I think it would be great if we had some of Canada's Olympic team training in Milton - living even. It would be fantastic to have more positive role models in town for kids to look up to! I personally think it's the coolest thing ever to have Chris Hadfield as a role model but more, and a diversity of them would be fabulous!


You can also tell the group of cyclist here training are riding at what is probably 30 kms/hr (you can tell by their position on the track). 30 kms/hr is an easy pace to sustain for hours on end in the enclosed environment a velodrome creates for recreational riders. This is what the pace of most rec rides would be at. Faster riders can choose to ride closer to the top of the track where the speed are inherently higher.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:23 pm 
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Rick Malboeuf wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Colin Wrote I agree with the Mayor who has been promoting this facility stating " he would not do anything that would be a risk to the taxpayers of Milton".


Main Street Leisure Center has been losing money for 20 Years, to date has cost taxpayers over $ 6 million and continues to cost taxpayers over $300K a year, New fitness center /swimming pool in Milton Sports Center annual operating deficit projected to be around $500k , Milton Centre for the Arts projected annual operating deficit $ 600K -$750 K, and finally our limosine style transit system that will cost taxpayers over $ 2 million this year and with the introduction of the 3 new routes at the end of the year that cost to taxpayers will increase to $ 2.7 million in 2013. And now a velodrome to add to this list. How much more can Milton taxpayers afford to pay to provide facilities and services that a small number of Miltonians actually use? Just Asking ???

I suspect that despite all the hype this velo drome will become a burden for the taxpayers of Milton. members of council are saying that this will be a multi-purpose facility, but the business consultant made it quite clear it's primary function will be as a high performance cycling track and other uses will have to be restricted to accomodate. As for the mentionned trade shows and conventions again the business consultant stated that it is not recommmended that it be used for these purposes. As far as all the recreational riders that would be using it, again I quote the consultant, this will be a high performance olympic caliber track....little Johnny will not be able to show up and ride his bike around it as one member of council believes.

I hope I am wrong on this, only time will tell, unfortunately the true impact of this decision will not be known or felt for at least 5 years.

Rick malboeuf
Councillor Ward 4


You keep spewing out the same out of context quotes and misinformation, so much that it's gotten past the point of ridiculous. Little johnny is exactly who will be able to ride this track. You think you wake up at 21 years old and the first day that you ride a bike on the track you are ready to compete? Youth programing has to be one of the fundamental uses of the track. Londons FCV is considered one of the most difficult tracks to ride in perhaps the world and their junior programing starts for kids as young as 7. Considering most kids take their training wheels off at 5, I would say that's a pretty young age to get into the sport.

Mr. Hack's reference to the track being of a high caliber, was simply around the fact that in order to comply with the governing bodies like the UCI, the track must meet international standards to hold sanctioned competitions.

One of the appeals of cycling, in any discipline, is that you can use the same equipment and ride the same roads and facilities that the pros use. You loose that, you loose the appeal.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:21 pm 
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freemantrailfamily wrote:
I read the business case and have no reason to doubt it.
I expect the consultant is a smart guy. He is on a $95k contract and no doubt hopes to get more municipal business. He is working for an enthusiastic staff and a council that twice voted 9 to 2 to proceed with an investigation of this project. He has probably been reading the papers and councillor quotes.

What were the chances that the business case wouldn't support the project? I think some skepticism is warranted.


Last edited by garlis on Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:22 pm 
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fillerguy wrote:
Rick,

There are alot of us out here who agree with you. Last time I checked, all levels of government in Canada are running a deficit yet spend like we are running a surplus - we can't keep living on borrowed money - which is what all these expenditures are - borrowed money. Keep up the fight. You represent the majority.


Not on this forum. Read the poll on this page. I would say the people voting here are more informed on the issues then most.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:28 pm 
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fillerguy wrote:
westender wrote:
fillerguy wrote:
Rick,

There are alot of us out here who agree with you. Last time I checked, all levels of government in Canada are running a deficit yet spend like we are running a surplus - we can't keep living on borrowed money - which is what all these expenditures are - borrowed money. Keep up the fight. You represent the majority.


Not on this forum. Read the poll on this page. I would say the people voting here are more informed on the issues then most.


votes by a bunch of people in debt voting for more debt.


Ya, "the majority". Your words, not mine.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:40 pm 
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fillerguy wrote:
westender wrote:

Ya, "the majority". Your words, not mine.


You can't rely on Mattamy for all your revenues in the future. Truth is, this a crappy little town stuck between a highway and a garbage dump - only thing keeping it alive is a housing bubble. Get out before the bubble pops or the students move in otherwise you'll be stuck in a dead end town with ever rising property taxes. Enjoy your Velodrome.


Sounds like you love it here. Enjoy your half empty glass of water.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:47 pm 
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westender wrote:
fillerguy wrote:
westender wrote:

Ya, "the majority". Your words, not mine.


You can't rely on Mattamy for all your revenues in the future. Truth is, this a crappy little town stuck between a highway and a garbage dump - only thing keeping it alive is a housing bubble. Get out before the bubble pops or the students move in otherwise you'll be stuck in a dead end town with ever rising property taxes. Enjoy your Velodrome.


Sounds like you love it here. Enjoy your half empty glass of water.


LOL. I was thinking the same thing. The federal and provincial governments are hell bent on spending this particular money on the Pan Am games and this venue. The business case makes sense (and not just because of the enthusiastic council - comparing it to numbers from other facilities, as well as the other prospective benefits for this community). Might as well have some of that money spent where we live! And it's not only students who move in with a university - there's professors, support staff, researchers and others in the community - I'm a professor's kid who grew up close to a university in a very nice neighbourhood. I hate it when all people think about are homes like kitchner/waterloo/london student housing ghettos. That can be entirely avoided.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:00 am 
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Build enough affordable student housing on campus. And have affordable apartment units close by off campus. The neighbourhoods surrounding the campus I grew up near (and where my dad worked) didn't need to control home conversions because they weren't desirable compared to the other options available around campus. Not sought out, and few people bothered to do them. It's still the case today. The majority of the neighbourhoods around the campus are homes owned by professors and support staff.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:13 am 
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fillerguy wrote:
freemantrailfamily wrote:
Build enough affordable student housing on campus. And have affordable apartment units close by off campus. The neighbourhoods surrounding the campus I grew up near (and where my dad worked) didn't need to control home conversions because they weren't desirable compared to the other options available around campus. Not sought out, and few people bothered to do them. It's still the case today. The majority of the neighbourhoods around the campus are homes owned by professors and support staff.



What happens is investors buy houses near the uni then they cram 20 students in the house.

And are you new to these forums? Because people on here FREAK OUT over cars parked on the street over 2 hours and have aneurisms when people park on the lawns ... and that's small stuff to what you get when students live in your neighbourhood.

Sigh. You missed my point. Students won't seek out crappy shoeboxes created by "investors" aka slumlords if there's enough alternative good and affordable student housing available on and off campus. AKA - good place to start zoning copius amounts of low rise apartments. Then students won't live in the middle of your neighbourhood in a crappy converted house. The bonus of this campus as well is it would attract a significant number of students who would take the cheapest route possible and live at home and commute. That's one of the advantages of a Milton campus.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:15 am 
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Well I am starting to read stuff and came across this from the Town's own Report No. Milestone 005-001-12
The opportunity to host the Toronto 2015 Pan/ Parapan American Games Velodrome facility and related training and competitive events leading up to, including and following the Games, is recognized as an honour. The permanent facility would serve as a high performance and community legacy, founded on the principles of supporting high performance and community cycling participation and growth, volunteer development, sport tourism, financial viability, community engagement and diversity.

Beautiful
:)
You know the underlying benefits are also there, but isn't there a chance to reduce the overall cost and future liability? Instead of spending $50M, why not $20M? Do we need to gold plate the structure and facilities like I feel was done at City Hall and even the new Beatty library. Moving forward, I thought we elected a group of smart and money wise public servants to protect our investment in this community, not to spend thrift.

Our Healthcare is more important than the needs of cyclists... We have growing infrastructure that needs investment for the future.
Sorry if I offended anyone. My bike is paid for and it serves me well. My governement is broke.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:33 am 
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fillerguy wrote:
freemantrailfamily wrote:
Sigh. You missed my point. Students won't seek out crappy shoeboxes created by "investors" aka slumlords if there's enough alternative good and affordable student housing available on and off campus. AKA - good place to start zoning copius amounts of low rise apartments. Then students won't live in the middle of your neighbourhood in a crappy converted house. The bonus of this campus as well is it would attract a significant number of students who would take the cheapest route possible and live at home and commute. That's one of the advantages of a Milton campus.


I didn't miss your point. It's a point I've heard many, many times. Looks good on paper but in the real world it doesn't work that way. Your utopian housing will always have a higher cost (because you follow the rules) that I (the slum lord) will undercut because I don't follow the rules. Students on a budget will always come to me. And 9 times out of ten, because those students don't give a f**k about where they live, they won't give a f**k if they bother you.

Sure the cops may come out a few times a year, the neighbours will hate me, the city will send me nasty mail, but in the end they can't do anything to stop me.

Tour Fort Richmmond, Richmond West and Waverly Heights surrounding the University of Manitoba campus. There are very few examples of student slum housing. It's hardly utopian. It's the neighbourhoods my friends and I grew up in. Lots of affordable apartments with easy transit access and lots of on campus student housing. And a lot of kids who stayed at home and drove or took the bus to school. Closer to home I don't believe Oakville has student ghettos in the residential area around Sheridan College either.

We should start a seperate thread!


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