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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:20 am 
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My Previous post wasn't to imply any "stigma" with the public transit system, its simply a matter of practicality and value for my time. The wait and hassle of the public transit system is not an efficient use of my time.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:21 am 
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I typically do not comment on these types of threads because inevitably the comments of one of my fellow villagers much more eloquently captures my thoughts, however, so far this has not happened. I have taken transit in almost every single major city within Canada and also know the statistics behind transit use in this country. I have to respectfully disagree with Steve on this issue as he continually keeps comparing us to Mississauga which I think is wholly inaccurate.

When you think about places like Mississauga and Toronto what is the impetus driving people to take the bus:

To go to work
To go to a show or club
They do not have a car
To go to a mall
They can not drive (too young or elderly
To go to a game
To go to a festival

Now as unfortunate as it is Milton is definitely a commuter town so town transit is not going to get people to work in the vast majority of cases. I have to admit that if this were the only argument it is a bad since anyone that is familiar with transit stats knows (browse stat’s Canada transit) the vast majority of people who use the bus do not use it to go to work (about ~15 % do)

But how about the other points. Are people going on mass the buzzling culture core of Milton for dinner and a show? I think I’ll head to Toronto for that, although eventually the massive funding going to the Art Centre may turn that around. How about households not having a car? Wait we live in a commuter town which may explain why I see a car in virtually every drive way and why people have such issues with parking on the street. How about our favorite local sports team? Maybe I might head down to the pond to watch prickley pete but I think by and large people will leave the town for that too. Do we have a massive amount of teenagers who happen to be going to school or university? No but maybe one day when all these kids grow up.

The population demographics in Milton point towards young family’s (the very demographic which tends not to use the bus as fun as it is to lug around used diapers and strollers on a bus). Also from the parents I speak with they will not even let their little ones walk to school let alone take a bus. We do not have a university yet, so there goes that one.
So what’s the answer? Well for festivals , malls and events like farmers market simply accommodate those events. You know when and where they are occurring, and when they will be ending. The argument of planning is also a good one but the key word is plan. That is have a strategy in place for when we have shows to go to, a sports team, a population and jobs all within the city and know how to accommodate these things. The answer is not to have everything in place and empty buses driving around. If we use the argument of planning why not start building a subway or how about an airport? Maybe we should have houses built on mass to accommodate all the people who will be taking transit eventually? You would not do that because the need is not there but if you knew it was coming you would PLAN for it (have an empty lot, know who suppliers were etc).

As someone also correctly pointed out part of the planning to have transit work is density and I would ad colocalization. It used to be called having a downtown.

Now complaining is great but what about the solution? Right now perhaps the answer is to have a transit service that is not a bus. Perhaps have a transit van to take care of those few users. Less cost for gas and less specialized training necessary thus no high priced bus driver necessary and also more flexibility .


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:26 am 
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Steve & Kelly wrote:
daycaremom wrote:
I just don't understand why the town is using full sized busses instead of small ones. I have never seen more than a couple of people on one.
I wish the hours would be better for students. My kids use the system, but would like it on the weekend and evenings as well.


That is a symptom of a system in its' infancy and there is no doubt that you will have buses that are not filled up. On my route to the GO station, our bus has many people on it. The new system is almost 6 months old and it has been clearly proven that ridership is steadily increasing, so in time the buses will get filled. I will be the first one to say that the system is not perfect and it is still developing, but at the same time it has not been 6 months yet. My math has clearly shown that the taxi cab idea will actually cost the taxpayers of Milton a whopping 33 percent more than transit to move the same volume of people around in Milton. We can also make the same argument about cars on the road. Aren't they mostly empty with 1 person in a vehicle the overwhelming majority of the time? The last time I checked, the number of "mostly empty" cars far outweigh the number of "empty buses" on Milton's roads.


Maybe GO feeder busses in the morning and evening make sense but what about the rest of the day?

Except that the people driving their cars aren't being subsidized to the tune of $10 per ride and are only on the road when the occupants are actually going somewhere.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:18 pm 
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Another point that seems to have been missed is we will need roads (although arguable less maintance would be needed) regardless of whether or not people are using cars to commute. Thus we will still need to build roads even if we became entirely reliant on buses. That is unless you would encourage our police, ambulances and fire fighters to take the bus.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:40 pm 
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daycaremom wrote:
I just don't understand why the town is using full sized busses instead of small ones. I have never seen more than a couple of people on one.
I wish the hours would be better for students. My kids use the system, but would like it on the weekend and evenings as well.

Sadly Friday evening and Saturday service that were planned for implementation this year were post-poned in the name of keeping the budget increase lower than inflation. Given the budget crunch over the next couple of years I wouldn't hold my breath for seeing it for at least one or 2 more years. That's the canundrum. You need more services to get more people to use it. That costs $$$.

BTW, the 4(I think that's the number) full-sized buses were purchased through Metrolinx as part of a much larger GTA order with New Flyer in order to take advantage of bulk pricing. And they put them on the busier routes as I understand. There still are several smaller buses that I believe (I could be wrong) originally came from Oakville Transit.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:09 pm 
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Steve & Kelly wrote:
gdm894 wrote:
Several others have posted that until the public transit system offers greater convenience than driving there is no way they will be taking it and I fall into that group as well. In fact it is probably a safe bet that most people fall into this group!

There has been talk about relieving congestion, wear of the roads… Well it’s a fact that an empty bus on the road is not relieving congestion at all, it is contributing to it. And busses weigh much more than a car so one bus trip (full or empty) causes more wear to a road surface than several car trips.

In today’s Star an article on the earlier mentioned Hazel McCallion said when she turned 88 that her biggest regret was poor transit planning and “You can’t build a public transit system based on single homes. You need the density.” So, how is Milton learning from Mississauga’s and other city’s mistakes? What are we learning from cities where public transit is most successful? Where are Milton’s higher density areas where public transit would make sense? Where are future high density areas being planned? What are Milton’s plans to allow public transit to be as successful as possible; what right-of-ways are being set aside for future light rail or subway or dedicated bus routes/lanes?

While public transit is useful to some it is clearly not the answer to the needs of all people who need to get from point A to point B, especially in its current format. Personally based on the way Milton is growing (sprawling) and the current public transit system I see a long future of empty busses heavily subsidized by all taxpayers. I’m not sure I want my tax dollars wasted on a might some day break even public transit system.

And as a final note I do not subscribe to the premise that if you build it they will come so let’s continue to run empty busses around town until people notice them and start using them. We shouldn’t feel obligated to provide a service just because other places do or because we are lead to believe it is the socially responsible (or current politically correct) thing to do. Right place, right time, right format and public transit has its place, I’m just not convinced that the conditions are met in Milton at this time and without some serious planning they may never be.


So as Milton continues to "sprawl" how do you plan to alleviate the congestion that will ultimately fill its roads? All people talk about is how bad transit is, but nobody wants to acknowledge the fact that we are heading down an unsustainable path. You simply cannot build enough roads to handle car traffic. This has been proven time and time again. I am not trying to start a fight with anyone or be overly negative, but nobody seems willing to entertain the fact that the roads in Milton will "fill up" as they have in Mississauga. We have a chance in Milton to do that properly now while we are still building. It's too late for Mississauga.

If we all think this way, I want my taxes refunded for schools and hospitals, because I have not used them.


No need to get defensive Steve. I am not a public transit expert and don't pretend to be but I can observe what is happening and read about what works and what doesn't. My observation is that what we currently have in Milton doesn't work.

Population density has been stated as a requirement for the success of public transit and until there are enough closely packed people wanting to go to enough nearby (probably located in Milton) places than I don't see a future for "traditional" public transit in Milton.

I seriously doubt that Milton will reach the population density of any city with a well functioning public transit system in the near future. The town houses west of Holly on Derry don't even come close to what is needed but let's guess how the people of Milton would react to a proposal for a row of new 20 story apartment buildings at Derry and 4th Line or Derry and Bronte! You can bet there will be strong opposition (just look how people are reacting to the proposed zoning changes along Main St between Ontario and Thompson and we are only talking 4 stories here). One argument will be the increase in traffic! And you know what, they'd be right because unless the people living in those apartments could get on a bus outside their building at 7 o'clock in the morning and be at work by 8 or 9 then they'd be more than likely to get in their car and drive to work. So to me one thing this means is we need to make sure that our business park plans are executed sooner rather than later and that we attract a wide variety of businesses and industries so that there is reasonable opportunity for more rather than fewer Milton residents to actually find work in Milton.

I've mentioned the need for planning and the point I'm trying to make is that I don't see any thought to zoning or right-of-ways or any other factors that will lead to Milton's ability to offer an effective public transit system (or sustainable growth for that matter) in the near or distant future. Back to the Toronto Star article on Hazel, it mentions that Mississauga grew the way the developers wanted and that is exactly how Milton is growing now; so how is it we are learning from others what works and what doesn't?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:32 pm 
gdm894 wrote:
Several others have posted that until the public transit system offers greater convenience than driving there is no way they will be taking it and I fall into that group as well. In fact it is probably a safe bet that most people fall into this group!

There has been talk about relieving congestion, wear of the roads… Well it’s a fact that an empty bus on the road is not relieving congestion at all, it is contributing to it. And busses weigh much more than a car so one bus trip (full or empty) causes more wear to a road surface than several car trips.

In today’s Star an article on the earlier mentioned Hazel McCallion said when she turned 88 that her biggest regret was poor transit planning and “You can’t build a public transit system based on single homes. You need the density.” So, how is Milton learning from Mississauga’s and other city’s mistakes? What are we learning from cities where public transit is most successful? Where are Milton’s higher density areas where public transit would make sense? Where are future high density areas being planned? What are Milton’s plans to allow public transit to be as successful as possible; what right-of-ways are being set aside for future light rail or subway or dedicated bus routes/lanes?

While public transit is useful to some it is clearly not the answer to the needs of all people who need to get from point A to point B, especially in its current format. Personally based on the way Milton is growing (sprawling) and the current public transit system I see a long future of empty busses heavily subsidized by all taxpayers. I’m not sure I want my tax dollars wasted on a might some day break even public transit system.

And as a final note I do not subscribe to the premise that if you build it they will come so let’s continue to run empty busses around town until people notice them and start using them. We shouldn’t feel obligated to provide a service just because other places do or because we are lead to believe it is the socially responsible (or current politically correct) thing to do. Right place, right time, right format and public transit has its place, I’m just not convinced that the conditions are met in Milton at this time and without some serious planning they may never be.


Amen!


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:35 pm 
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Steve, you're a really nice guy and you contribute a lot to the forum and town, but you have serious blinders on regarding this issue and you're making up problems that don't even exist and almost certainly never will.

Really, now a "gridlock issue" will come to Milton? Sez who??

More and more stores are being located on the outskirts of town as well as in neighborhoods. Employment, such as it is, is similarly scattered and will be more so when the planned industrial corridor between 4th and 5th lines is complete. (And IMO that's actually a good thing.) Regardless, it's not like we're downtown Toronto and everyone is fighting the big commute down the DVP and Gardner to pour into downtown Milton every day.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:50 pm 
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Steve & Kelly wrote:
Also, if Milton somehow manages to avoid these kinds of problems in the future I will be the first one to admit that I was wrong. But here is a point to consider. If we decide to develop Milton just like any other sprawling suburb, what makes us think that we will not encounter the same kinds of problems encountered by those other suburbs?


Exactly and this is one of the points I've been trying to make!

But to suggest that if we should encounter excessive traffic grid lock in the future that simply throwing some busses at it will solve the problem over simplifies things to say the least. Clearly if the bus isn't going where the people need to go and when they won't ride it. And if higher density is a key then we have another problem because the type of "places to live" people moving to Milton are looking for are not high density apartment blocks, they want their own backyard and driveway to park their car in. And plenty of street space for the other cars that don't fit in the driveway.

No amount of Milton public transit will solve the 401 - James Snow morning issue, those folks are trying to get to work in Mississauga or Toronto. For that we need a regional plan (what Metrolinks is supposed to be about) and certainly an initiative that needs further effort. And as I've said we need to focus on bringing the kinds of jobs to Milton that people living in Milton want to work at so that it then becomes feasible to take a bus to work.

What it boils down to for me is that Milton's current public transit system offers little value for its cost and that a great deal of planning is needed to achieve the factors favourable to a viable public transit system in Milton and beyond. Stumbling along spending money on an ineffective system with the hope that it will improve or solve a future problem doesn't cut it for me.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:47 am 
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There's one thing I can't quite get over with some of the points being made here.
Missisauga is NOT a suburb.
It is a city of almost 700,000 people.
Canada's 6th largest.

Even with the Places to Grow target of 238,000 for Milton in 2031, that's STILL smaller than even Markham is today. Forget Mississauga for a second - Shouldn't we be looking at transit in places like Markham, Vaughan, and even Kitchener?, each currently with slightly over 200k people?

Shouldn't we be planning for 2031 instead of 2131?
Let's stop looking at Mississauga for a second. Just because it's close and convienient to, it's an entirely different beast.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:55 am 
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Fred D wrote:
There's one thing I can't quite get over with some of the points being made here.
Missisauga is NOT a suburb.
It is a city of almost 700,000 people.
Canada's 6th largest.

Even with the Places to Grow target of 238,000 for Milton in 2031, that's STILL smaller than even Markham is today. Forget Mississauga for a second - Shouldn't we be looking at transit in places like Markham, Vaughan, and even Kitchener?, each currently with slightly over 200k people?

Shouldn't we be planning for 2031 instead of 2131?
Let's stop looking at Mississauga for a second. Just because it's close and convienient to, it's an entirely different beast.

Thankfully that's what the regional and local transit advisory committees tend to do. We do have to think about Mississauga in terms of connections as the reality is many of us do work there and in Brampton and while the town is working at bringing more jobs locally that will help increase local transit use, there will still be a large portion commuting out of Milton for the forseable future. But, from a general perspective in terms of lessons good and bad from growth including transit there are lessons to be learned from Mississauga.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:53 pm 
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Steve & Kelly wrote:
Leo, thanks for the compliment, but there are parts of Milton that are already starting to experience gridlock. Have you seen James Snow and the 401 during rush hour? Have you driven up or down Thompson Road?


Steve, yes I get caught in the James Snow / 401 mess all the time ... that's hardly your classic gridlock though. If the 401 would move, cars would be able to enter it and the lights at main/james snow wouldn't be the mess they are. Said differently, the only thing that will solve that mess is fixing the 401 congestion ... no amount of overly-funded Milton transit buses will make a dent in that.

And yes I drive up and down Thompson Road all the time ... the lights are a mess but I don't see gridlock there either.

One last point I want to make -- not to anything you said specifically -- is re. the comments about density and transit. Yes I agree that higher density would naturally lead to increased use of transit ... but it is totally bass-ackward to strive for higher density just so that people will use a frickin' bus.

Personally, I LIKE sprawl. What's wrong with a little sprawl out here anyway? It's the suburbs ... that's why we moved here! If we wanted high density urban living, we'd move to Toronto already.

P.S. In case my posts haven't been clear, I do support transit. We should have some buses to serve the population, and probably big buses to and from the Go Station at peak time. But the extent to which the town has carried it is completely ridiculous IMO and I support Rick Malbeouf's attempts to inject a reality check and some fiscal responsibility back into the process.


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