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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:25 am 
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Sandeep wrote:
RMX wrote:
Sounds like the 407. Use our tax dollars to build it, then charge us an arm and a leg to use it.


It was built with borrowed money. The tolls were used to pay off the loan. The sale paid off the construction and then some.

Tax dollars were not used to build it.


According to many, tax dollars were used to build it.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:48 am 
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The government built the 407, and then sold it for more than they/we put into it. Part idea was that the government could borrow money for less than a private corporation. The issue with the 407 is we probably could have got more money, or we shouldn't have sold it and had a better deal, and other issues with licence renewal etc.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:51 am 
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We needed a highway, and we got one. We knew it was going to be a toll road. It's way better maintained than the 401, has less construction delays (for some reason, the 401 sections need to be repaved every 2 years). It has less traffic. It has less accident delays. In my eyes, its a success.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:04 am 
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Sandeep wrote:
How do you this board speaks as the entire Milton Community?



Its pretty easy to bet that if you went around town asking for a large donation to help pay for the $20 million (to start, bet you our portion is going to balloon to $40 million by the time its done) construction cost you'd get a majority of "Im sorry, no money" door slams.

The sad part is, I dont even want to reach the point in 5 years when "I told you so's" are going to come. I just dont want to be stuck paying for this useless money blackhole for the next 30 years out of our taxes. It literraly is useless for 99% of us. Common sense says if no one else wants it, and the 2 other places it has been built its ended up being a flop, then we should avoid this and put a stop to it like markham residents are fighting to stop their nhl arena to nowhere...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:42 am 
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nspace wrote:

I understand that non-cyclists probably see this a waste of land and money, but I don't think its accurate to say that. I'd argue that a hockey arena is a waste of space for someone who doesn't play hockey. You can't please everyone, but I think this facility will see good use.


I'm still not sure where I stand on this topic, but to me, the above statement doesn't help the cause.
Drive by the sports centre and the parking lot is PACKED with milton familes using the rinks.. I mean the parking lot is always packed.. with local taxpayers.
Your argument is based on the fact that many in the GTA will benefit because all of the avid cyclers won't have to drive to London anymore?

So 43-yr old Jimmy from Scarborough who owns an $1800 road bike doesn't have to drive as far for his hobby? Why should we care about his hobby? If this is to benefit the GTA, then Rob Ford and other GTA mayors should be pitching in.

A hockey rink is not a waste of money if it is always full with local families. Check out the Sports ctr on Saturday morning. If it was empty... then I'd agree.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:22 am 
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I'm starting to see the light against the Velodrome. I'm changing teams!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:18 pm 
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Fred D wrote:
nspace wrote:

I understand that non-cyclists probably see this a waste of land and money, but I don't think its accurate to say that. I'd argue that a hockey arena is a waste of space for someone who doesn't play hockey. You can't please everyone, but I think this facility will see good use.


I'm still not sure where I stand on this topic, but to me, the above statement doesn't help the cause.
Drive by the sports centre and the parking lot is PACKED with milton familes using the rinks.. I mean the parking lot is always packed.. with local taxpayers.
Your argument is based on the fact that many in the GTA will benefit because all of the avid cyclers won't have to drive to London anymore?

So 43-yr old Jimmy from Scarborough who owns an $1800 road bike doesn't have to drive as far for his hobby? Why should we care about his hobby? If this is to benefit the GTA, then Rob Ford and other GTA mayors should be pitching in.

A hockey rink is not a waste of money if it is always full with local families. Check out the Sports ctr on Saturday morning. If it was empty... then I'd agree.


Of course I just have one viewpoint, lots of non-cyclists are going to see it differently and I understand that. You could take your kids to learn how to race track, enter youth programs, and come out to watch races just as people do for hockey games. Given the scarcity of world class indoor velodrome facilities, I suspect this will attract a much higher caliber of competition for spectators than a local hockey rink. People drive up from the US to visit Forest City for competition.

It's no different than hockey, gymnastics, basketball and other sports which require facilities. What makes you think that no families would show up to the track? You're assuming the parking lot for the velodrome is sitting empty and it hasn't even been built. Families show up in London. It is just as feasible of an activity for the family. Not to mention, doesn't the plan account for some non-cycling recreational space in the infield similar to the one in Manchester? I don't know Milton's exact cycling demographic, but cycling as a whole outside in this province is growing and there is most definitely a demand. That is for all ages too. There are people in their 60's and 70's riding at FCV, its low impact and they can do it in a controlled environment without worrying about traffic.

I never made a point it would be just Milton folks, simply responding to the fact that there is a demand and I strongly disagree that it would be sitting empty. I'll be a resident of Milton in a couple of weeks and would be happy to see my tax dollars go towards something like this. I would rather see this go towards a growing sport that doesn't get near the attention it deserves, versus putting in another hockey rink or similar facility.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:30 pm 
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Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with a good chunk of your post. What my point was based on is the srouce of tax dollars -- IF it becomes a big local cost, Milton will be paying for something the entire GTA uses -- whereas another rink would be used by nearly 100% local families, so we're getting use of of the cost.
This is of course before the discussion on user fees, etc..
I'm just saying the whole "vs arena" debate doesn't hold weight for me since the user base is coming from the tax base.
I am definitely open to discuss, still formulating an opinion myself.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:53 pm 
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nspace wrote:
I disagree. Disclosure, I am an avid cyclist so there is my bias.

I've lost count how many times I've come out to Milton to go road riding, or ride at Kelso/Hilton Falls/Agreement Forest etc.


Not to offend at all here nspace but can you confirm that you are a Milton resident or contribute some form of taxes to the town of Milton. From the second statement I quoted it sounds as though you are not. So while you may be an avid cyclist who would love the benefit of a Velodrome close to where you live you may not be aware that we are a growing community here in Milton. A growing community that has a long list of needs that far exceed the want of a Velodrome. My neighbours, my fellow residents of Milton face grid lock everyday going to and from work because our roads are not adequate for the booming population. The existing recreation & community centres do not have adequate space to accommodate its citizens. Parents hop on line early in the morning, hours before registration begins in hopes of getting their children into a community swimming class. Many children, sadly are turned away from those swim programs and other community programs because of lack of space.

As I've argued on here before regarding the Velodrome (thank you to the Mod who merged the threads) I've been told that the Velodrome wouldn't cost the tax payer a dime and now we are looking at a 40% budget increase in the consultation costs alone. I'd like to thank the Good Councillor Malboeuf for his transparency on the matter and bringing this to the residents' attention. You get the feel from some of the posts related to this topic that the residents have heard enough about the Velodrome as time has went on. Inflated budgets, etc are frustrating the people to no end.

I've been told this will be a community centre to which I have rebuffed that no, it is not a typical community centre. I brought forth the example of what happens when the Canadian National Cycling Championships (I apologize if there is no such thing, I admit I am not an avid cycler) and it just so happens my rec basketball league at the Velodrome is on the same night. I would think my recreation league would be cancelled due to such a prestigious event whereas this would not happen at a community centre that offers activities to its community and not just to a small minority of cycling enthusiasts who may or may not live in their community.

I guess you can tell from some of these posts that many citizens feel they were ill informed about the possible Velodrome. Council may not have been trying to hide the plans for a Velodrome, they may have just been rushed. I mean Hamilton had 4 - 5 years to ponder the Velodrome before they walked away. Hamilton was smart, they passed. Milton it seems jumped into the puddle with both feet without any galoshes on.

I'm not trying to be stand offish here, just trying to make you realize that Milton is not just a place for recreation in the escarpment on the weekends, people actually live and work here. Those people would like to see the quality of their lives improve via their tax dollars before they are subjected to special interest projects such as the Velodrome or the Arts Centre.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:55 pm 
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nspace wrote:
I'll be a resident of Milton in a couple of weeks and would be happy to see my tax dollars go towards something like this.


To quote myself, I disclosed this in my last post. I have been visiting Milton for years, and these are major reasons why I chose to live in Milton. Now I am moving to the town before the end of the month, and from that point will be contributing just like other residents. I don't see Milton as just a place to visit on weekends either, otherwise I would have never chose to move outside the city, and this is coming from someone who currently lives in the heart of Etobicoke.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:58 pm 
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nspace wrote:
I understand that non-cyclists probably see this a waste of land and money, but I don't think its accurate to say that. I'd argue that a hockey arena is a waste of space for someone who doesn't play hockey. You can't please everyone, but I think this facility will see good use.


The difference being the track of a Velodrome is only for cycling. On an ice pad yes there is hockey but you can also have public skating, school skating days, figure skating and ringette to name a few other activities that can happen at an arena. Those activities as a whole appeal to a greater amount of people than cycling would. That being said cyclists are further divided, I would agrue that a cyclist who enjoys mountain biking in the escarpment may or may not enjoy using a indoor velodrome. Both are different and quite specific sub types of cycling.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:07 pm 
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nspace wrote:
It's no different than hockey, gymnastics, basketball and other sports which require facilities. What makes you think that no families would show up to the track? You're assuming the parking lot for the velodrome is sitting empty and it hasn't even been built. Families show up in London. It is just as feasible of an activity for the family. Not to mention, doesn't the plan account for some non-cycling recreational space in the infield similar to the one in Manchester? I don't know Milton's exact cycling demographic, but cycling as a whole outside in this province is growing and there is most definitely a demand. That is for all ages too. There are people in their 60's and 70's riding at FCV, its low impact and they can do it in a controlled environment without worrying about traffic.


But it is different. Your talking about people coming in from all over Ontario, perhaps from all over the country or continent. And why would people come from all over? Because there is not a Velodrome in every community. Those who choose indoor cycling as their hobby must travel far. Hockey, gymnastics, basketball, etc. are all local community based. Thats why the arena has been sacred to so many Canadians for generations now. Its not just about hockey, figure skating, etc. Its about seening Bill from down the street, he's at the arena at 5am too for his kid's practice. Then there's the same old lady working the snack bar, the same lady who has been working the snack bar since your kid was in tyke 8 years ago. Familiarity, community.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:28 pm 
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I feel like playing hockey now.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:48 pm 
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This project gives me a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach. I dislike the haste in which things were done and there is a higher risk level involved that makes me a bit queasy, but I am also hopeful that it will accomplish some long term positive benefits for Milton and that this will become more like the velodrome in LA that is break-even/profitable (though it took about 5 years) and which has a similar size and footprint as the proposed Milton one.

First, it's not just Milton taxpayers who are funding this - both in long term operational costs but in the initial construction. The initial construction costs are covered partly through fundraising (a large chunk of which comes from the cycling community and supporters of the cycling community in the GTA, Ontario, Canada, North America and probably internationally). The portion being funded by provincial tax dollars through the Pan American Games so it is in part being funded by us, the GTA, and Ontario, just as Miltonians are in part paying for a portion of all the other much more expensive facilities being built for the Pan American games including the multiple Olympic pool complexes including the one in Markham and University of Toronto Scarborough Campus. Operationally through the legacy fund Ontarians will also be paying for a portion of the long term operational costs of this facility, the Scarborough pool, and the athletics complex. Frankly, I wish the Pan Am Games committee would have taken a much more budget concious approach to hosting these games and more seriously considered a temporary facility for the velodrome. Pools were a catch-22 as I believe the are just not enough current olympic sized competition pools in the GTA for the current number of aquatic events so they had to build new, and I'm not familiar with athletics facilities and what is existing vs required in the GTA. Leaving a legacy in the form of sporting buildings is always controversial and rarely profitable. The only hope I have for any long term viability for this project is the eventual construction of a campus and the velodrome being incorporated into it's athletics facilicities and cost-sharing with the municipality. But don't be mistaken - there are certainly Miltonians who can't wait to be able to enjoy their chosen sport year-round locally instead of making the trip to London.

That being said, this is a done deal. We're getting a velodrome. As a recreational cyclist who tools around town, with other cycling friends of a wide range abilities and interests what my hope if from this facility is that it becomes a catalyst for engaging cyclists in Milton and provides a much needed positive lift from an organizational perspective for the sport. I am pleased the Canadian Cycling Association is moving it's headquarters to Milton. I am hoping that move along will provide a stronger organizational motivation than currently exists in Milton. At the moment Milton is like the poor cousin of the Oakville Cycling Club. We have many first class trails that are popular for competitive mountain-biking, a fast growing BMX cycling community, a large number of avid road cyclists of a wide range of abilities, yet there is no Milton-based organization for cycling. It's from these organization from which education programs can be run (something I feel is important for overall vehicle safety for both cyclists and motor vehicles), rides can be organized by ability to encourage greater participation in the sport, and a social community of cyclists to share their concerns and be a voice for Milton specific cycling concerns at either the local or regional levels, and to make Milton a world-class cycling destination for all levels.

The facility is being designed with consideration for regular infield use for gymnasium-type sports from badminton, basketball, and similar gymnasium sport and programs that are quite popular at both the leisure and sports center, and surprisingly roller sports are interested in the track use in addition to the cycling, and a walking track around the perimeter which I'm looking forward to. There's provision for community room space and the infield and community room space that would normally go into a traditional recreational center (hence why a portion of development charges collected for gymnasium/recreational center can be applied to this) so it is a multi-use facility

For now, I just continue to urge council to keep a close eye on these costs and ask questions. Let's not wait for the regular updates, and let's not rubber stamp over-rums with no questions asked. Whether a councillor approved the facility or not, they should all be keeping close tabs on the costs and ask questions of staff and contractors. If this keeps happening, impose penalties (financial or otherwise). There needs to be accountability for things not coming in as budgetted. As the facility progresses council needs to ask tough questions of staff to ensure an appropriate management team is selected for the facility operation, it's rental rates once assumed from the Pan-Am committee are reflective of operational cost, and development and retention of multi-purpose infield use is maximized, and development of a strong Milton-centric cycling organization actually does happen.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:12 pm 
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VCola wrote:
nspace wrote:
I understand that non-cyclists probably see this a waste of land and money, but I don't think its accurate to say that. I'd argue that a hockey arena is a waste of space for someone who doesn't play hockey. You can't please everyone, but I think this facility will see good use.


The difference being the track of a Velodrome is only for cycling. On an ice pad yes there is hockey but you can also have public skating, school skating days, figure skating and ringette to name a few other activities that can happen at an arena. Those activities as a whole appeal to a greater amount of people than cycling would. That being said cyclists are further divided, I would agrue that a cyclist who enjoys mountain biking in the escarpment may or may not enjoy using a indoor velodrome. Both are different and quite specific sub types of cycling.


Has the plan posted on the Milton website somehow changed from not being a multi-use facility to a cycling only facility since I last checked? I recall there being 3 basketball courts in the infield in the plan in addition to a fitness gym, running/walking track. To say it would only be used by cyclists seems inaccurate.

Is the fact that it brings others from all around to spend money in your community a bad thing? People come out for weekend of racing, they need to go out and eat at local restaurants, bike stores can sell track bikes and service them, etc. Local businesses in the community will find ways to also benefit from this. This is why towns build things that are attractive to more than just local residents. For example, there is an indoor bike park in Cleveland, OH (Ray's indoor mtb park). People came from all over to ride and spend the weekend there, and who the heck wants to drive 5-6hr or more to visit Cleveland? Joyride150 took a chance and tried to do their take on it in the GTA. People said it would fail. People said it wouldn't be able to sustain itself because who wants to ride indoors during the summer? Ray, owner of the Cleveland park was interviewed by the Canadian Media in response to a press-release about Joyride150 opening its doors and to get his opinion, and he even said that the park would never be able to keep its doors open all year round. Despite the warnings, they did it, and in their first year of operation they had their busiest days during the summer. They have a spin studio for all the moms and dads dropping their kids off, summer camps and youth programs, and kids are coming from the local community in addition to being from all around the GTA. Kids are loading up their bikes onto the Go Bus and coming out to ride. Who is to say that, that sort of success and community involvement cannot come to the Velodrome? I know this is a more privatized example, but a velodrome is a much bigger investment and requires a more purpose built building for it to happen, but it goes to show that offerings are greater than it may appear on the surface.

Maybe Joe from down the street might wake up at 5am to take his kid to train on the track? The old lady can still work at snack bar can't she? I don't know what that has to do with a velodrome versus another type of recreational facility?

Track cycling is definitely different than mountain biking, and some people are specific to one discipline. When I started cycling on my own, I had no idea I could get into racing, and neither did my parents; all I was interested in was riding around trails and going off jumps. On my own I eventually got into cross-country mountain biking, then a few years later I started racing. I then discovered road cycling. From there I dabbled into cyclocross racing, and even riding on the track. I can say that within my direct network of people in the cycling community, I would say that 95% of them participate in more than one, if not three different types of "sub cycling" disciplines. Looking back, I wish these sort of opportunities were available to me, or were close enough to my community to even know about them.


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