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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:28 pm 
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freemantrailfamily wrote:
but I am also hopeful that it will accomplish some long term positive benefits for Milton and that this will become more like the velodrome in LA that is break-even/profitable (though it took about 5 years) and which has a similar size and footprint as the proposed Milton one.


This is jokes, right?

You hope something in a metro area with 2x the population of the GTA is as successful?

The 2x alone is something to behold.

The weather in LA County is a great reason for people to be on a bicycle. The GTA does not have such nice weather for much of the year.

Gotta side with the doomsayers here.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:58 pm 
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routehero wrote:
freemantrailfamily wrote:
but I am also hopeful that it will accomplish some long term positive benefits for Milton and that this will become more like the velodrome in LA that is break-even/profitable (though it took about 5 years) and which has a similar size and footprint as the proposed Milton one.


This is jokes, right?

You hope something in a metro area with 2x the population of the GTA is as successful?

The 2x alone is something to behold.

The weather in LA County is a great reason for people to be on a bicycle. The GTA does not have such nice weather for much of the year.

Gotta side with the doomsayers here.


Yes, I'm well aware of the population difference between LA and the GTA. It's not all about population though. It's an INDOOR track so weather isn't so much a factor - it may actually work positively for the success of the Milton Velodrome as some road cyclists may be more interested in giving it a try exactly because our winter weather is crappy. The Carson velo also succeeds minus help from a legacy fund which the Milton velo will have to help offset that strict population difference. What I think we can take away from the Carson velo is management practices, it's proximity to a university campus (California State University Dominguez Hills which is similar in student population to the proposed Wilfred Laurier Campus) and how to work with the university to maximize useage and financial partnership in parallel with meeting community recreational needs, and it's programming for cycling development and promotion for all ages.

Being a naysayer is fine but I'd rather offer constructive comments to hopefully maximize the success of this project that's going ahead naysayers or not. Sitting on the sidelines saying "I told you so" on a project that's not going to get canned (and would involve financial penalties at this point if it was I believe) accomplished nothing.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:05 pm 
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You think that with 50% of the population and worse weather that people will use a track more?

You don't think that people will have significantly fewer bicycles due to population and compounded by weather?

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Being a naysayer is fine but I'd rather offer constructive comments to hopefully maximize the success of this project that's going ahead naysayers or not. Sitting on the sidelines saying "I told you so" on a project that's not going to get canned (and would involve financial penalties at this point if it was I believe) accomplished nothing.


This is a slippery slope if I've ever seen one.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:13 pm 
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nspace wrote:
Has the plan posted on the Milton website somehow changed from not being a multi-use facility to a cycling only facility since I last checked? I recall there being 3 basketball courts in the infield in the plan in addition to a fitness gym, running/walking track. To say it would only be used by cyclists seems inaccurate.


To clarify I have never stated that the Velodrome would be used only by cyclists. I am tired of reinterating so just read my post from June 2nd, 2012.

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Thanks Rick but it seems you are only responding to half of my comment. My point was that the VDome will not service the masses in the community, only a small intrest group of cyclers who will run the gambit 70% of the time. If we concentrated on building rec and community centres on our own time and dime without handouts from the Pan AM games legacy fund I think we could better plan facilities that would be appealing and accessable to the majority rather than a small niche of residents. The reason I said the VDome is a money pit is for that reason, because it only services a small majority. I wouldn't call a community or rec centre a money pit even if it did operate at a loss because it services the masses.


Then there's always my quote from June 3rd, 2012

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Also any major cycling event would surely cause a cancellation of all other activities within the infield, so if I'm playing in a Tuesday Night Rec Basketball League and there is the Ontario Cycling Championships (I don't follow cycling, forgive me if there is no such thing) going on or something is it tough noogies for me? This obviously would not be an issue if we were to build a C & R centre (I'm getting tired of writing community and rec centre).


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Is the fact that it brings others from all around to spend money in your community a bad thing? People come out for weekend of racing, they need to go out and eat at local restaurants, bike stores can sell track bikes and service them, etc. Local businesses in the community will find ways to also benefit from this. This is why towns build things that are attractive to more than just local residents. For example, there is an indoor bike park in Cleveland, OH (Ray's indoor mtb park). People came from all over to ride and spend the weekend there, and who the heck wants to drive 5-6hr or more to visit Cleveland? Joyride150 took a chance and tried to do their take on it in the GTA. People said it would fail. People said it wouldn't be able to sustain itself because who wants to ride indoors during the summer? Ray, owner of the Cleveland park was interviewed by the Canadian Media in response to a press-release about Joyride150 opening its doors and to get his opinion, and he even said that the park would never be able to keep its doors open all year round.


You aren't a resident of Milton yet so let me ask you a question, where are these people from all over going to stay? We only have one hotel! Well two if you count the 5th Wheel. More people from out of town sleeping in their cars will not only fill up our public parking lots but will also create grid lock nightmares on the weekends because we invest in pet projects here in Milton. Velodrome GOOD! Infrastructure BAD!

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Despite the warnings, they did it, and in their first year of operation they had their busiest days during the summer. They have a spin studio for all the moms and dads dropping their kids off, summer camps and youth programs, and kids are coming from the local community in addition to being from all around the GTA. Kids are loading up their bikes onto the Go Bus and coming out to ride. Who is to say that, that sort of success and community involvement cannot come to the Velodrome? I know this is a more privatized example, but a velodrome is a much bigger investment and requires a more purpose built building for it to happen, but it goes to show that offerings are greater than it may appear on the surface.


I'm all for private enterprise. Anything I can do to help you open a private Velodrome in town would be my pleasure. I'm sure surrounding businesses would love it too! Think of all the added business they'll get from tourists from around the continent. When it comes to building a public venue, I'm of the belief governments at all levels have over extended themselves and mal adjusted to the current economic climate.

As far as contributing to local businesses sure they may make a buck but on the end they'll just have to hand it right over to their municpal government when property taxes rise to support a mostly half empty Velodrome.


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Maybe Joe from down the street might wake up at 5am to take his kid to train on the track? The old lady can still work at snack bar can't she? I don't know what that has to do with a velodrome versus another type of recreational facility?


You're playing on my words. The early morning practice and old lady behind the counter was simply used to paint a picture of what it is to be a part of a local community. It was not meant to be taken literally. I was just trying to illustrate the contrast between people coming to the facility from across Ontario/Canada/etc as opposed to being on a more local scale.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:32 pm 
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Vcola, periodic cancellation of in-field activities during a cycling race event would be NO different than what happens now at the Sports Center with the occasional cancellation of public swim and rescheduling of swim lessons to accomodate a swim meet (as happened last weekend), or regular hockey games for a special ice event (such as the Sectional figure skating championships last year, or a Hockey tournament). And events like those have residual economic benefits for the town as well for restaurants, shopping, and hotels and raising the town profile nationally. Also, the 70% thing got warped. That pertains only to track usage, and much of the time with track usage you can have infield events going in in parallel. The management structure does specify that a certain number of board spots do have to be allocated to people who are pro-cycling but that certainly does not preclude efforts to make the facility as multi-use as possible. It is certainly something that council and staff needs to stay on top of and look very carefully at the management structure of velos like Carson to give it the best chance of success. And lobby their pants off for the University campus.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:15 pm 
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Interesting article on the Velodrome on the CBC (http://www.cbc.ca/hamilton/news/story/2 ... drome.html):

Quote:
Hamilton Olympic cyclist Sue Palmer-Komar was in Milton Thursday morning to announce details of the new Pan Am velodrome.

All cycling events for Toronto's Pam American Games in 2015 will happen on this site. Hamilton city council made a failed bid for this facility in 2011.

Thunder Bay's gold medal Paralympian cyclist Robbi Weldon joined Palmer-Komar, along with Pan Am CEO Ian Troop, Milton mayor Gordon Krantz and Bal Gosal, federal minister of sport.

“We are extremely excited to house this world-class sports and community recreational facility in Milton. The velodrome within the Milton Education Village will help transform this part of the community into a dynamic new neighborhood,” said Krantz.

Milton's 154,000 square-foot velodrome will be the only in Canada - and the second on the continent - to meet international cycling standards and will operate year-round.

This means Canadian cyclists will not longer have to train at the velodrome in Carson, California, the site of the 1984 Olympic cycling events.

“With this facility, we have designs on being the fastest, most state-of-the-art velodrome on the continent,” said Troop in a statement. “Not only will this ensure a fantastic field of play for the top cyclists in the Americas and Caribbean coming to compete here in less than a thousand days, it will also put Milton and Canada on the world map of cycling.”

Milton's velodrome will be three storeys with a 250-metre track for competitive cycling, along with courts for other sports, a jogging and walking track and 2,500 spectator seats.

The facility is expected to cost $56 million. About $25 million is coming from the city of Milton and a private donor. The federal government will pick up the rest of the tab, contributing about $31 million.

The Pan Am committee turned down Hamilton's bid in October 2011. The city only offered five of the $22.5 million the committee was asking for.

The velodrome will be built in the Milton Education Village on Tremaine Road, next to the proposed site for a new Wilfrid Laurier University satellite campus. After the Pan Am games, Olympians and competitive cyclists can use the facility for training.

Construction is expected to begin in February 2013, with a completion date in fall 2014.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:07 am 
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Gonna be awesome!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:11 am 
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freemantrailfamily wrote:
Vcola, periodic cancellation of in-field activities during a cycling race event would be NO different than what happens now at the Sports Center with the occasional cancellation of public swim and rescheduling of swim lessons to accomodate a swim meet (as happened last weekend), or regular hockey games for a special ice event (such as the Sectional figure skating championships last year, or a Hockey tournament).


There may be the odd cancellation here and there but from my experience these cancellations are generally scheduled well in advance and are looked at (at least by hockey team I've played for) as more of a bye week than a cancellation.

You bring up the examples of swim meets and special ice events. I would argue that if the town of Milton were to invest in conventional recreation facilities as opposed to the Velodrome then we wouldn't see those cancellations so frequently. One of the things I have brought up repeatedly is the fact that Milton does not have enough facilities to meet the demand of the residents. I've brought up the example time and time again about parents waking up at the crack of dawn so they can sit by their computer, in the hopes of registering their child for a swim class. Many of those children get turned away because there simply aren't enough pools in Milton. With the cost of the Velodrome (minus the legacy fund, federal funding, yada yada yada) the town could built one or two rec / community centres and alleviate some of the registration whoas people are now experiencing.

I for one would feel better about having my weekly hockey game cancelled if I knew it was because Little Johnny from down the street and his buddies were playing for their hockey championship. I don't mind giving up my spot for local kids. Cancellations at the Velodrome however would mean I don't get to play hockey because some quasy pro cyclist from the other side of Canada wants to compete in a cycling championship. Do we even have a single competitor from Milton that would participate in one of these "world class events"? This goes back to the Velodrome being a pet project for special interest groups, many of them not local. I oppose the Velodrome because it does not serve the local population.

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And events like those have residual economic benefits for the town as well for restaurants, shopping, and hotels and raising the town profile nationally.


I've asked before, where are these hotels people will be staying at? To the best of my knowledge we only have a Best Western in town and the 5th Wheel Inn. If they can't lodge here in town they will lodge somewhere else. I'd think that they would shop and eat close by to where they are staying, never spending a dime in Milton.

In regards to the town's national profile I could care less. I'm looking for a nice place to live, where I can get to and from work in a reasonable time. I could care less what Saskatchewan Sally thinks of Milton. Why are we so desperate to sell Milton to everyone who will listen? A great community speaks for itself.

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And lobby their pants off for the University campus.


Between empty buses and empty Velodromes you'd think we were a lock for the University. In all seriousness, I have heard this before and I don't understand the logic. Public Officials are making it sound as though the Velodrome is going to help our bid for a University campus. I've never heard of a University rejecting a community because it does not have a Velodrome, but then again I've never heard of a University selecting a community because it has a Velodrome.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:13 am 
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Sandeep wrote:
Interesting article on the Velodrome on the CBC (http://www.cbc.ca/hamilton/news/story/2 ... drome.html):

Quote:
Hamilton Olympic cyclist Sue Palmer-Komar was in Milton Thursday morning to announce details of the new Pan Am velodrome.

All cycling events for Toronto's Pam American Games in 2015 will happen on this site. Hamilton city council made a failed bid for this facility in 2011.

Thunder Bay's gold medal Paralympian cyclist Robbi Weldon joined Palmer-Komar, along with Pan Am CEO Ian Troop, Milton mayor Gordon Krantz and Bal Gosal, federal minister of sport.

“We are extremely excited to house this world-class sports and community recreational facility in Milton. The velodrome within the Milton Education Village will help transform this part of the community into a dynamic new neighborhood,” said Krantz.

Milton's 154,000 square-foot velodrome will be the only in Canada - and the second on the continent - to meet international cycling standards and will operate year-round.

This means Canadian cyclists will not longer have to train at the velodrome in Carson, California, the site of the 1984 Olympic cycling events.

“With this facility, we have designs on being the fastest, most state-of-the-art velodrome on the continent,” said Troop in a statement. “Not only will this ensure a fantastic field of play for the top cyclists in the Americas and Caribbean coming to compete here in less than a thousand days, it will also put Milton and Canada on the world map of cycling.”

Milton's velodrome will be three storeys with a 250-metre track for competitive cycling, along with courts for other sports, a jogging and walking track and 2,500 spectator seats.

The facility is expected to cost $56 million. About $25 million is coming from the city of Milton and a private donor. The federal government will pick up the rest of the tab, contributing about $31 million.

The Pan Am committee turned down Hamilton's bid in October 2011. The city only offered five of the $22.5 million the committee was asking for.

The velodrome will be built in the Milton Education Village on Tremaine Road, next to the proposed site for a new Wilfrid Laurier University satellite campus. After the Pan Am games, Olympians and competitive cyclists can use the facility for training.

Construction is expected to begin in February 2013, with a completion date in fall 2014.


This just highlights one of my major concerns. I may have missed it but I didn't read about how this is going to help and improve the lives of the local residents.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:01 am 
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This article was a bit better.

http://www.insidehalton.com/news/articl ... 56-million

The community benefit comes from the community center facilities being included as part of the in-field design. "The three-storey facility will feature a 250-metre timber track with two 42-degree angle banks. Cyclists can reach speeds in excess of 80 km/h. And while cyclists train on the track, the three multi-use courts located on the infield can be used for basketball and volleyball games while joggers can use the walking track at the spectator level". These would also be useful for Wilfred Laurier whenever/if that happens (sure hoping for WHEN).

The velo will also become home to the Canadian Cycling Association, so their adminstrative staff will be relocating to Milton from Ottawa, as well as some Canadian coaches, trainers, and cyclists that currently use Los Angelos as their training center.

I'll also say Rick Malbouef's statements about the sport legacy of the Winnipeg Velodrome being a failure because it was torn down in the 1990's is wrong. It had a tremedous 20 year legacy, but it's nature as an outdoor facility gave it a very finite lifespan.
1) It was an outdoor concrete that operated from 1967 - 1998 (though it really ceased being a cycling track facility by the late 1980's). Outdoor tracks have a limited lifespan, especially in the Winnipeg climate and an outdoor velodrome in a place where Oct-April is not useable strictly from a weather standpoint becomes obsolete with the advent of indoor facilities.
2) It most definitely left a legacy in cycling and football (which is what it's infield was designed to be). It was a popular place for high school football games throughout it's life, and the Winnipeg Blue Bombers used it as a practice facility. During it's life-span Winnipeg dominated track cycling, particularly women's track cycling. Clara Hughes is one of the most well-known names to come from the Winnipeg track cycling legacy. Tara Dubnicoff is another - she currently lives in California training junior track cyclists at the Los Angelos velodrome and the Canadian team - so she's likely to be one of those who may now relocate to Milton and start our legacy in 2015.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:42 pm 
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I'll also say Rick Malbouef's statements about the sport legacy of the Winnipeg Velodrome being a failure because it was torn down in the 1990's is wrong. It had a tremedous 20 year legacy, but it's nature as an outdoor facility gave it a very finite lifespan.


I was referring more to the Velodrome built for the 1999 Pam Am Games hosted by Winnipeg. Because of their previous experience with the Velodrome you cited they decided to build a temporary facility and following the games it was dismantled and shipped to Europe. That is what we should have done.

When Toronto first bid for the 2015 Pan Am Games the proposal was for a temporary Velodrome with a projected cost of $11 Million. After winning the bid, this then became a permanent facility with a projected cost of $ 50 Million. When TO2015 couldn't find a host municipality willing to share that $50 million cost it was reduced to $ 45 Million and when that didn't work it became $ 40 million. They were going to keep lowering that number until they got a municipality to take the bait, and Milton did hook line and sinker. Now we find out the new projected cost is $ 56 million. Five different projected costs for the velodrome within a 3 year period. And I am suppose to have confidence that these people know what they are doing :roll:

When council was presented with this $ 40 million number, I stated that there was no way such a facility could be built for that figure. I was told by staff, by members of council and by a representative of the TO2015 committee that I was wrong and that in fact the $40 million number was high and that it would probably come in under that. Well guess what, I was right and they were all wrong. Because now we know that the new projected cost is in fact $56 million, and that is a projected cost. The tender has just been awarded, no architectural drawings have been submitted, no contractors hired, we have not even put a shovel in the ground and the projected costs are already 30 % higher than the costs Milton council was presented with. :roll: :roll: And I haven't even touched on the " smoke and mirror " legacy fund, I'll will save that for another day.

Rick Malboeuf
Councillor Ward 4


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:53 pm 
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Rick, Winnipeg is THE cheapest city on earth (not penny-wise just cheap) and doing the temporary track was the right choice. Now, they should have foregone the Museum of Human Rights. (now THAT's a 350 Million Dollar boondoggle that's included 100 Million in federal dollars sunk into a building many of us doubt will ever open it's doors). But the fact the Winnipeg Pan Am games came out ahead of the game financially proved they made the right choices in using their existing Olympic pool, the temporary velo track (which was sold, not given away I believe), and prudent fiscal management in games operation. I agree that I would have preferred the province/2015 committee taken the temporary outdoor velo route as Winnipeg did for the 1999 games and resell the track for a net-zero impact dollar-wise. The provincial financial situation does not warrant the elaborate legacy projects at this point in time, and I question the value of the games themselves vs the cost. Why are they building 2 Olympic pools for heavens sake! The velo on the other hand is a relatively modest building in comparison, which much greater opportunity for making it a multi-use facility. If Milton hadn't grabbed the velo I'd bet a good chunk of change Hamilton would have picked it up again. I think they were playing a game of chicken with the Pan-Am committee to get it for less to nothing, and got the rug pulled out from under them quite unexpectedly.

So in that context, that building was going SOMEWHERE and Milton is an ideal location in many ways and I do see the potential benefits for the community. Keep asking the tough questions. It's necessary. As I've said before I think the best chance this thing has to work for the community is if we get the Laurier Campus. I do think relocation of the Cycling Association of Canada to Milton is a great benefit and hope it will boost organization and participation in the sport at many levels in Milton (I'm hoping more mountain-bike organizations, recreational road rides and a stronger voice for local cycling infrastructure). I'm personally looking forward to a walking track that's not over an ice-rink (some people love that, me not so much), and yes, I actually even know a few locals who are down-right giddy about riding at the velodrome and will be lining up for memberships.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:55 pm 
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Thats why the town looked to safeguard itself financially so if costs go up by millions its not the town that would be on the hook for the extra 16 million.

The town's portion of the costs are capped. Be it $40 million or $56 million or $100 million.

Champion wrote:
The federal government will invest $38.4 million while the Town’s capital contribution to the construction of the velodrome will be capped off at $17.6 million.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:22 pm 
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Rick Di Lorenzo wrote:
Thats why the town looked to safeguard itself financially so if costs go up by millions its not the town that would be on the hook for the extra 16 million.




Rick

WE should not forget that the $16 million (current level of forecast overspend) will be funded through Provincial and Federal taxes - we should not adopt an attitude of "I'm all right Jack" The fact that we are already at this sort of level of forecast overspend belittles comments made at Council to the effect that Milton knows how to deliver large projects on budget!

Martin

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:08 pm 
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Rick Malboeuf wrote:
Well guess what, I was right and they were all wrong.


C'mon Rick, don't go stealing my 2014 campaign slogans now. LOL!

VOTE VCOLA - He told you so!


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