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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:53 am 
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cactus_jack wrote:
So anything can be improved, Fred. You just have to want to.


100% correct. But who decides that we want to? When an ounce of public money goes into something, are options not scrutinized?
Is the question Build a Velodrome YES vs NO, or
Is the question Do we build a velodrome, vs "Do we spend $$$+ X to make it the best velodrome on the planet"?

Do we want to spend the extra $X? How much is that extra $X, and what are the options regarding building a very good facility that widens access to the sport, vs building the BEST one possible to attract the worlds best to train here?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:01 pm 
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Do they generally ride counterclockwise on the track?

They'd better, because Milton won't put in a right turn lane on it.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:13 pm 
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cactus_jack wrote:
Maybe the velodrome will get piano stairs!

xylodrome anyone?

EDIT: and yes, it seems they DO ride counter-clockwise. Phew!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:17 pm 
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cactus_jack wrote:
Fred D wrote:
freemantrailfamily wrote:
LOL, spoken like a real-estate agent.

:) I'm not quite sure what that means?? I question EVERYTHING ever since my Univ days, where my brain was corrupted with years of environmental education and asking "What If" about almost everything... my poor wife!!

I'm all for R&D for things that are produced en masse, but for a sport that has 4 indoor locations on the continent, is it necessary? And why do the tracks need to be faster? Isn't there a regulation speed, or is the intent to have all world records broken here due to track improvement? like juiced baseballs and LZR swimsuits, are we measuring the athletes, or do we just want to invent stuff to make them faster? (Then what happens when the canadian team that trains here goes internationally to compete, and their times are significantly slower?)

Standing still works just fine for swimming pools, tennis courts, ping pong tables, basketball courts, hockey ice.. sure there are improvements over decades, but aren't we just creating a market for what Dale Hughes has to sell? Of course standing still is not an option for a designer whose livelihood depends on it.

Again, I'm just questioning it for the sake of questioning it... I will absolutely ride there and use the facility when it is built, but if it is going to happen, I would like to see costs controlled to ensure viability long term. Is that "real estatey", or just good business?


If you're trying to become the de-facto training facility for something, it helps to be able to allow the athletes to perform at their very best.

And it wouldn't surprise me to learn that:
-swimming pools are designed differently to minimize wave movement, currents, etc.
-tennis courts having better surfaces and technology to monitor whether or not a ball is in
-ping pong tables using different materials and designs to increase/decrease ball spin and bounce
-basketball courts using new materials to minimize slippage and increase durability
-hockey rinks using new cooling technologies to have "better ice" - ice that doesn't chip, and maintains the perfect surface temperature throughout the entire rink.

So anything can be improved, Fred. You just have to want to.


You said what I was going to be in much less text. Take a look at the competition pool at the sports center next time you're in. The most obvious is the way the filtration system is done along the length of the front and back of the pool. The ice rinks at the sports center have vastly better compressors and heat recovery for efficiency and better ice surface. Were you up in arms about public scrutiny of all these options when they designed the sports center or were you content with trusting town staff to work with the chosen design/build contractors to take care of these. Do you want to have a say in all the building systems and medical equipment choices the hospital makes for it's expansion or do you trust the health care professionals to know their job and equipment needs? Why would we treat the velodrome differently?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:23 pm 
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munchito wrote:
cactus_jack wrote:
Maybe the velodrome will get piano stairs!

xylodrome anyone?



That's awesome! It's like nuts and gum, together at last!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:32 pm 
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freemantrailfamily wrote:
Do you want to have a say in all the building systems and medical equipment choices the hospital makes for it's expansion or do you trust the health care professionals to know their job and equipment needs? Why would we treat the velodrome differently?


Clearly no, but design-wise? You are comparing a health care professional to a design architect. Did we want the million dollar stone wall at town hall? Did we want the piano stairs? One happened, one didn't, but at least we talked. Neither are life saving negative air ventilation systems that would go into a hospital... but again, we asked, we discussed...

All I am doing is posing the question about where the money is coming from, and what it is being spent on, due to the massive price tag associated with such a project.

Back to the real estate thing... when a client says "My budget is $400-500k", do I send them listings for $550+? or do I ask them what their needs are, and see if we can find something in the lowest end of the range possible, that meets their needs? Same mindset - I don't like waste, and I like to see people saving cash whenever possible.

What ARE the needs? What is the purpose of this project? To be the best in the world, anywhere? Or to be well built and serve the community? Again, that's my point. If it is to be the best in the world, that might change people's opinions on the matter.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:01 pm 
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Fred D wrote:
freemantrailfamily wrote:
Do you want to have a say in all the building systems and medical equipment choices the hospital makes for it's expansion or do you trust the health care professionals to know their job and equipment needs? Why would we treat the velodrome differently?


Clearly no, but design-wise? You are comparing a health care professional to a design architect. Did we want the million dollar stone wall at town hall? Did we want the piano stairs? One happened, one didn't, but at least we talked. Neither are life saving negative air ventilation systems that would go into a hospital... but again, we asked, we discussed...

All I am doing is posing the question about where the money is coming from, and what it is being spent on, due to the massive price tag associated with such a project.

Back to the real estate thing... when a client says "My budget is $400-500k", do I send them listings for $550+? or do I ask them what their needs are, and see if we can find something in the lowest end of the range possible, that meets their needs? Same mindset - I don't like waste, and I like to see people saving cash whenever possible.

What ARE the needs? What is the purpose of this project? To be the best in the world, anywhere? Or to be well built and serve the community? Again, that's my point. If it is to be the best in the world, that might change people's opinions on the matter.


The track is no different than health equipment or negative air ventilation systems. It's a rather important sub-component of the overall building. The track designer is also a track cyclist. If you read the article you'll see he builds cost-effective tracks using custom plywood panels and steel trusses as opposed to traditional imported siberian pine. Should he design a sprinter-friendly or distance-friendly track? Beats the heck out of me. Can both be used well by recreational riders - yeah. What does the Canadian team prefer? I would hope THAT would be the question they'd be asking for the subtleties of the track design within whatever the actual portion is designated to the track budget.

With regards to the overall building architectural appearance, yes it would be nice if there was public input on that. I'm not sure if there are public input sessions for the Pan Am games facilities. I couldn't find a reference to any public meetings on the pool facility in Markham. I haven't looked into the U of T pool or the facilities at York to see where they're at or if there's been public input on that.

I LIKE that million dollar imported glass wall at town hall. Well worth every penny. Great visual tie from the old buildings to the new and creates a stunning front entrance to the main lobby. Regular non structural glass panels with framing would have been only very slightly less expensive and would have looked terrible (like 980,000 or something like that but nobody ever quoted THAT). Ventin Group did a superb job on the restoration of Old town hall and the new expansion. Not even in the same league as that cheesy piano stairs idea. The glass wall decision was standing up for good architecture, the other was just a bad idea.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:06 pm 
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The only concern I have with the Velodrome is the ability to transform it into a secure defensible compound/bunker in the case of the zombie apocalypse.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:49 pm 
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freemantrailfamily wrote:
I LIKE that million dollar imported glass wall at town hall. Well worth every penny. Great visual tie from the old buildings to the new and creates a stunning front entrance to the main lobby. Regular non structural glass panels with framing would have been only very slightly less expensive and would have looked terrible (like 980,000 or something like that but nobody ever quoted THAT). Ventin Group did a superb job on the restoration of Old town hall and the new expansion. Not even in the same league as that cheesy piano stairs idea. The glass wall decision was standing up for good architecture, the other was just a bad idea.


I agree 100%, but you have to admit this is only an opinion (that we share), and this expenditure wasn't completely necessary. Again I am saying I agree with you, but we are just 2 people, and this is a merely an opinion of what money should be spent on. Nothing to to with health, safety, etc. Anything based on opinion should be questioned and discussed. We also agree on the piano stairs, although others thought is was a perfectly sane and acceptable item to spend on. They were obviously wrong (lol) but have the right to an opinion.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:25 pm 
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Fred D wrote:
freemantrailfamily wrote:
I LIKE that million dollar imported glass wall at town hall. Well worth every penny. Great visual tie from the old buildings to the new and creates a stunning front entrance to the main lobby. Regular non structural glass panels with framing would have been only very slightly less expensive and would have looked terrible (like 980,000 or something like that but nobody ever quoted THAT). Ventin Group did a superb job on the restoration of Old town hall and the new expansion. Not even in the same league as that cheesy piano stairs idea. The glass wall decision was standing up for good architecture, the other was just a bad idea.


I agree 100%, but you have to admit this is only an opinion (that we share), and this expenditure wasn't completely necessary. Again I am saying I agree with you, but we are just 2 people, and this is a merely an opinion of what money should be spent on. Nothing to to with health, safety, etc. Anything based on opinion should be questioned and discussed. We also agree on the piano stairs, although others thought is was a perfectly sane and acceptable item to spend on. They were obviously wrong (lol) but have the right to an opinion.


Fair 'nuff! :lol:
It did take me a bit to get on board with the velodrome. I am of the personal opinion that Hamilton was holding out and playing a game of chicken with the government to try and get more for less and they lost (or gained depending on your opinion ). I don't think the PanAm Committee was going to back down and build a temporary track which is what I think they should have done.

I do hope as well that there is public input on the building design from an architectural standpoint to get community feedback. You are 100% right that we are the ones that have to look at it for the years after the pan-am event so we should have a say in how it fits in visually especially considering it's location. I would hope that they have to follow the same consultation guidelines for other buildings but I'm not sure (still wondering how the school board managed to get the elementary school design at 4th line and Derry past a public meeting unless I missed something which is quite possible).


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:37 pm 
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For what it's worth I received this today....

Quote:
I trust all the TO2015 Venues are getting the same deal as Milton has negotiated:

"Every municipality should be demanding the same deal that Milton received, which is that the host municipality contribution is capped at the 44% of the original projected cost of the venue and will not be required to contribute to any cost over runs." Today's Insider's Missive

Taxpayers remember that this means the overrun still comes out of your pocket just that Milton is protected shifting the costs onto the Feds who are on the hook for the overruns in Capital Costs who have capped their total exposure which means they have to cut back on the other venues making more onerous deals.


It will be interesting to see how the TO 2015 PanAm committee explains this deal to all those other municipalities. I have also been advised that many of the other host municipalities are asking that they be included in the Legacy funding

Rick Malboeuf
Councillor Ward 4


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:35 pm 
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Rick, you know there are only two other eligible facilities for Legacy funding outside the velodrome - the aquatics center/field house/Canadian institute for Sport Ontario on the U of T campus in Scarborough, and the Athletics stadium at York University.

I'd bet bottom dollar it's Markham begging for inclusion to pay for their olympic pools, and maybe Hamilton to help with their soccer stadium on the Ivor Wynn site. They should have taken that into consideration before bidding on their programs. Too late now I say! They can ask all they want - that legal document on the legacy fund was pretty darned clear which facilities would get funding. If the feds and pan am committee change it now immediately back out of the velo program and sue them for breach of contract for all costs incurred. Simple contract law.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:49 pm 
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So are we getting an Indoor RibFest or not?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:49 pm 
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freemantrailfamily wrote:
Rick, you know there are only two other eligible facilities for Legacy funding outside the velodrome - the aquatics center/field house/Canadian institute for Sport Ontario on the U of T campus in Scarborough, and the Athletics stadium at York University.

I'd bet bottom dollar it's Markham begging for inclusion to pay for their olympic pools, and maybe Hamilton to help with their soccer stadium on the Ivor Wynn site. They should have taken that into consideration before bidding on their programs. Too late now I say! They can ask all they want - that legal document on the legacy fund was pretty darned clear which facilities would get funding. If the feds and pan am committee change it now immediately back out of the velo program and sue them for breach of contract for all costs incurred. Simple contract law.


There is no legal legacy agreement which is why I was critical of council approving to go ahead with the velodrome project, without having that legal document you speak of detailing the legacy funding. We were initially told our share would be 1/3, the latest is that will not be the case the majority of the funding will be going to the aquatic center, our share is yet to be determined.

Rick Malboeuf
Councillor Ward 4


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:04 pm 
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And the fact that there is a supposed "cap" on Milton's share is a false security blanket anyway.

If the veledrome costs balloon to something like a 20million overrun, do people really believe the province is just going to merrily pick that up no questions asked? Yeah, like we've *never* heard of the province breaking a promise before, have we. :roll: Even if they do ultimately agree to cover crazy overruns 'on paper', to think it won't come back and bite us in the ass re. reciprocity in lower hospital and other infrastructure funding is the worst kind of naïveté.

I wish I had some swampland to sell half these councilors. Because there is some serious gullibility on display here.


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