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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:17 pm 
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Eventually, home prices will go back up. It will all average a 2-3% rise per year over the long term. You may ask me why but it is all simple.
The economy is all a chain reaction. Labour cost, whether it be contractors or people who make building material, etc , rises year over year. people get raises, minimum wage rises pushing all other wages up etc...
Therefore, the cost of building homes rises. Who pays for that? the end consumer. etc etc etc...

Prices have risen so fast lately that they are due for an adjustment. but once prices are at a point that makes sense, home prices will rise again.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:25 pm 
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Dabills wrote:
sure mr.big. and what is that price that makes sense? 10,15,20,30 percent of what you see today in Milton? We need to get to normal first, what is normal?


Normal price is the price you'd get by applying an average of 2-3% increases to the original value established at the last dip (15 years ago). prices were more so about right January/February 2009. But then things spiked upwards in the spring like crazy.


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 Post subject: Re: Housing Market
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:01 pm 
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I do not think it is very clever to compare the history while gauging where the interest rates are headed. I heard this argument (that interest rates will go up significantly) from big bank representatives again and again to lure me into long term fixed mortgage rates (and their complex fixed mortgage contracts).

One of the reasons why interest rates may not go up very soon and why comparing history may be irrelevant: Today's north american (and European) economy is upside down compared to what it was 10-20 years ago. Today, our economy is relying mostly on service sector, instead of lucerative manufacturing sector. With manufacturing slimming down, there are many more related businesses going down. People are simply not motivated enough to invest in businesses, since the returns have dwindled down significantly (in remaining competitive businesses). Under such a scenario, government may not have any choice but to keep the interest rates down to encourage people to take some risks and motivate their enterpreneurships. This economy situation is not going to change very soon and hence the low interest rates and hence the housing sector (although as I said before, we may see some cooling down in housing sector).

The other fact that supports above argument that the housing market may not over cool is that the house is made of two components: building (material + labor) and land. The building component increases faster than inflation (the minimum wages are increasing faster than inflation). The land component may go down because of softer demand. Let us assume that for $300000 home both the components are 50/50. In order to go down the total home price by 15%, you need the land prices to go down by 30%!! Is it likely?? Probably not. Mind you, this is assuming the unlikely situation that the building component remains steady (normally it will go up modestly).

To your other comment, I am not saying that we will not be in recovery in next 2-3 years. We WILL be in recovery (and have probably started), but this jobless recovery will be long and painful. It may not be good enough for hiking the interest rates at the levels you are indicating.

I do not have crystal ball; but I am sure above arguments and conclusion are not out of reality.


Ol Skool wrote:
A 2-3% increase to 5-6% will still be substantially under the long run trend for fixed rates the last 60 years which is around 8%. For you to say that won't happen you are saying implicitly that 2-3 years from now we will still not be in a recovery. We aren't the U.S. so we are not the global reserve currency. We can't print money willy nilly because the rest of the world will soak it up. At some point, the bond market will reflect the true cost associated with borrowing based on the debt levels out there. Countries will once again compete for money because too many countries have too much debt to pay off and not enough coming in as taxes to facilitate it. The bond market can only be artificially suppressed for only so long and that is what long term rates are based on, not what the prime rate is. Savers and credit nations will once again be rewarded with a high return on their money as it should be.

Moreover, we aren't Japan. They have been able to keep their rates at zero for the last 15-20 years because they are a homogenenous society with a high savings rate (20% in 1989 when there housing market crashed. Close to zero now). Therefore, their baby boomers put all their savings into the Japanese bond market so Japan's debt is all internal. In Canada we have no savings and our society is more heterogenous so there is less group behaviour. Therefore, rates will go up because we will have to compete for cash like everybody else. And soon Japan will as well because their savings are close to zero.

Do not and I repeat do not let these low mortgage rates give you a false sense of security. Do you take advantage of them now? YES! But not if it means taking on more debt than you would have otherwise. Use it to be more aggresive in reducing your debt levels.

So the moral of the story. The Canadian Government does not set long term fixed rates. The market does, so our Government in the end has no control.


littlestar wrote:
I would agree with Ol Skool if the interest rates rise; but 2-3% interest rise is very unlikely in next 3 years. Yes, I know the banks predicted this much interest rate rise couple of months ago, but the situation has changed dramatically since then and I do not see many more interst rate hikes.

Proof? In month of June 2010 the best available 5 year fixed mortgage rate rose to about 4.3%. Now you can get that rate for about 3.7%. Actually, I am talking to a mortgage broker and he is willing to offer me 3 year fixed mortgage rate of 2.7%!! I could not believe it, but yes, that's what they are offering! I am sure that this lending institution is not in business to lose money. I thik the CHANCES are that the rates will stick to relatively low levels for next 3 years, atleast. It should be noted that North America and Europe are still recovering from one of the worst downturns in economy.

The government is quite conscious that if the interest rates go up, the housing market will take a nose dive (in agreement with Ol Skool). Govt would not want to see the housing market going down (which takes whole economy down with it), and hence may remain very conservative in hiking the rates.

I am of the opinion that the interest rates will not rise to uncomfortable levels and the housing market will flatten, if not grow.


Last edited by littlestar on Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:06 pm 
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dtc wrote:
I do see a correction in housing coming but I think for most places it will come in the form of slow increases or holding of current prices for a few years. You may not see any increase in value for 3 or 4 years as the correction takes hold.


Bubbles burst.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:30 am 
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Your first mistake is saying thst history is irrelevant. Our entire educational structure is based on its foundation. It is there to learn from and not repeat past mistakes.


In many cases it isnt a mistake, Yes learning from mistakes is a key part of the past and growth, but the assumption the past is an indicator of the future only makes sense if the variables are the same and with a dynamic world like ours its almost never the same.

Take a stock for example... I dont care that 10 years ago a company made a really good decision and as a result the stock made 20% , it makes no difference to me. Investing is about the future, not the past. What I want to know if Im investing a company is what is their plan for the future.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:19 am 
So whats the data from 1900-1950 ago, or 900-950's telling us about

sub-prime mortgages,
35-40 mortgage terms
<5% down payments
"reckless" use of home equity lines of credit
and how they effect interest rates?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:49 am 
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I am still waiting for the answer to the question. When will prices drop 10%?

Tomorrow, next week? Next year?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:27 am 
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itsajeeepthing wrote:
Richardv wrote:
I am still waiting for the answer to the question. When will prices drop 10%?

Tomorrow, next week? Next year?


after I sell my house in the spring ;)


It happened to me! I lost about 5% due to the panic.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:01 pm 
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Ol Skool wrote:
Our uh oh moment will come when those $75 billion dollars worth of 0 down 40 yr mortgages start re-setting by 2011 - 2012.
you mean when they reset to a lower interest rate?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:46 pm 
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Steve & Kelly wrote:
The impact of the HST will force some people out of that pricepoint. People will be able to afford a house at a certain price. If that range is increased by 8%, it will make houses in that price range unaffordable to some people.


For some, I agree but then, if you can no longer afford a $490k home because of a $9k increase, you really are shopping above your means already.

Ol Skool wrote:
Number one. Housing in the long run has to be affordable.


Very bold statement. I have friends come over from London UK and can not believe how 'cheap' the homes are for the size. Your dad has to be an oil sheik to get married and move into a 2500 sq ft detached home as some people do here. You typically start off buying a flat (an apartment, not as nice as a condo) and that is a huge accomplishment. It is not a right to own a home, so saying prices have to be affordable is going a bit far. Maybe we are spoilt , affordability means you can rent a place or buy a small apartment not buying a large detached in a suburb. London was in the high 7's and crashed to 5.8 in terms of house price to earnings ratio in 2007/2008, now it is back to about 6.8. If you can not afford to live in London, move out to the country side or buy a flat not a mcmansion.
I see the same trend happening here over time as suggested by Steve & Kelly, downsizing. Those that have been in it long enough will be the ones with 'old money' or 'old equity' and the ones that can still afford the macmansion's. If you are not flipping and in it for the long run (10+ years) and already have 25%-35% equity in your home, I see no problems with the markets up and down.

Ol Skool wrote:
I expect the bottom to be anywhere from 25% to 45%.


45% drop in price?
No, we don't have to get back to 3 to 1 ratio and buy the same size home by a huge price drop. As an individual I can decide to get back to a 3:1 if that is what really is driving your argument by downsizing or moving further out from the city center. It is kind of a sense of entitlement to think we all have to be able to afford monster homes as a right.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:21 pm 
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Ol Skool wrote:
Proudowner,

U.K. household debt is larger than their GDP. Their new PM is ahead of the curve instituting austerity measures to get their debt under control. There economy is not healthy whatsoever and their chronic overpriced housing contributes. What was your point again? I am talking about the housing market in Canada, not the U.K. Your U.K. friend could have said the same thing in 2007 visiting the U.S. So what.

Yes, in parts of B.C. home prices will eventually be down 45%.

Yes. You are right it will be different this time. Houses don't have to be affordable. We can just keep interest rates low in perpetuity and eventually have 50yr and 60yr amortizations. :roll:

It's great to talk about downsizing but housing is built on family formation. So you have to keep feeding households in at the bottom of the pyramid to keep the whole system sustainable. Therefore, I am talking about those people paying over $300,000 for an 1150 sq/ft house in Milton not McMansions.


I referenced UK to show that 5:1 does not have to be the ceiling as you implied.

Humans adjust, if you are in the bottom of the pyramid and can no longer afford a detached, that rental starts looking comfy with a new coat of paint.
My take on it, with today's prices, if you can afford a house, buy it now provided you can hold on for at least 5 years...maybe 10 years. Try and get a place you can come up with a substantial down payment...20% or more down and you should be good. If the market tanks, it will come back up and your equity and long term plan to live in it as a home and not an investment will serve as a cushion.

Ol Skool, did you sell in the spring or you are holding on to toxic property? I know a few people that sold in 2005 to rent because they were just as sure as you are the market was going to crash in 2006 and mayhem will break lose.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:44 am 
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Ol Skool wrote:
P.S. I know you are going to say that Milton household income is $100,000 so they can afford that 3:1 ratio for that $300,000 house. Correct. BUT they aren't buying that house. They are buying the half million dollar house and for $500,000 in 2010 Milton I would hardly call it a mansion.


Crash or no crash, I think it's sound advise to stay in that 3:1 ratio. Ol Skool is correct that if you can't afford the house at 3:1, you shouldn't be buying it. 5:1, 7:1 is insane. It's quite possible you will end up dying never owning the home and the bank will just repossess it and sell it to the next sucker at 7:1.

At my age, I wanted a detached home. I had to move further away from the 'Trendy' areas to get what I wanted but I'm just under 3:1. If I had to live in a higher demand area, I would have bought a townhouse and built equity for a few years so that I could purchase something larger that would be in the 3:1 range with a larger down payment taken from the townhouse.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:51 pm 
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All those numbers aside, how did I just sell a clients home for 99% of asking in 4 days? That's all that most of us really care about - "can I sell my home if I want / need to?". People are still buying, and there is no crash here at home (Milton). My last four sales have been in 5, 7, 5, and 4 days, in such a "slowing" market?? I agre, demand is less now than during the 2010 peak for Feb/Mar/Apr, but peaks are exactly that, peaks. If things never went down a bit, there'd never be any peak.

If you want to get into specifics, prices have gone UP since your very first post about the sky falling :) Again, you have a lot of valid points, but can't we just plan accordingly instead of fearing the wrath of a mythical burst? education and planning are key - I guess your posts are at least bringing attention to the matter like a protestor chained to a tree, or a big guy on a hunger strike - shock value :)


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:56 pm 
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Ol Skool, your spin on the numbers are not to suit the line you have been toeing?

I can quote my own numbers too, but just let folks read and decide the main press release. The fact is, the last part of this year will HAVE to be poor in comparison based on the anomaly of the last 12 months.

- HST -misinformation panic
- New lending rules for self employed
- New lending rules for insured mortgages etc
- Interest rates all time low (EVER)

All these lead to a stampede that ended in June/July, the market will level off but not the way you are stating. Show me where you found 6.3% drop in home prices and I will punch so many holes in it for you. Fact is, compared to the first 8 months of 2009, home prices are up. Next year April, you will NOT have the same % increase year over year not because the sky has fallen but because 2011 will be back to normal growth.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:15 pm 
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As long as fuel prices stay low and immigration levels stay high, housing prices will be high. Any change in either will spell KAOS.


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