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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:33 am 
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Ol Skool wrote:
Nominal vs Real growth.

Incomes have been growing in nominal terms but have been stagnant in real inflation adjusted terms.


Actually this is incorrect. The Vanier Institute did a report on the current state of family finances in 2010.

Incomes have been stagnant in the poorest and lowest fifth. 8% change since 1999 to 2008. The upper middle and upper fifth have seen larger increases over that period around 31%.

This is a direct representation of the loss of manufacturing jobs which once provided decent wages for the lower and lower middle class. We are also seeing an influx of immigrants who are willing to take on these jobs at lower rates as some expect a different standard of living due to their upbringing abroad.

Basically, the days of putting in your hours at GM/Ford and being able to hold a single detached home in the city as the sole earner for the family are over. This is what I see in the wage numbers. With China/India now taking task at doing all of the jobs we once paid decently for in North America there is bound to be a larger discrepancy between the classes.

If you look at the wages of professionals, you will see they are anything but stagnant.

In addition in 1999 the number of single income households was at 56% while in only 10 years it went down to 49%. This means that real actual household income increased as more families went from single incomes to dual incomes.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:55 am 
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CMHC Report out:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... le2145492/

Quote:
CMHC said that refinance activity fell by almost 40 per cent and has continued to remain around that level since Finance Minister Jim Flaherty made changes to the mortgage insurance rules earlier this year. One of those rules was to reduce the maximum amount that Canadians can borrow in refinancing their mortgages from 90 per cent to 85 per cent of the value of their homes. That rule kicked in on March 18.

CMHC’s profits still rose by $61-million or 19 per cent, to $383-million, for the three months ended June 30 thanks to earnings from mortgage-backed securities, gains from selling financial instruments, and lower expenses.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:20 pm 
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Dabills wrote:
maybe Batman, dont see #1 as too likely though. i get your point. i meant more that it will be out of reach for the next generation entirely. i doubt it.


2500sq/ft detached homes within 30km of the downtown core will be out of reach for the lower/middle class of the next generation.

We will see more medium/high density affordable housing coming in to meet those needs. Instead they will be condo/town owners instead of detached on 50' lots.

Look at the strict density plans/policies that are now in place in most areas of the GTA by the governments. They don't want any more subdivisions. They want more medium/high density development. Condos/row homes.

Any way you look at it, the GTA is pretty much winding down on the subdivision detached home front and growing on the condo front.

You will see more places in the core where they tear down blocks of the 1950s/1960s houses and throw up high rises.

Right now condos are overpriced but condo market is a lot different than the detached market. They have LOTS of places to build highrises with thousands and thousands of units. They can build taller easily. People are buying condos speculating they will increase in value like they did in the past. It's not going to happen.. there is just too much inventory.

Don't worry, the prices will come down on condos -- the next generation will easily be able to afford living in a condo unit.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:13 pm 
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Dabills wrote:
i agree on that DTC, lifestyles are changing. i disagree on one point though, the suburban sprawl might not be unaffordable for them, it might actually be undesirable.

commuting sucks. i think the middle class will always be able to get a semi in a field in Milton if they want it.

that mortgage reduction by 40% is interesting, Heloc's are slowing. Ol skool is looking spot on right now with his slow down theory in 2nd half of 2011


It really depends. I'm meeting/mingling with more and more people who are working from home many days per week. More and more companies are embracing a mobile workforce. Who knows that future holds.

I just saw a piece on the Lang & O'Leary exchange about the 40% reduction. Apparently that 5% change combined with the fees associated with doing a HELOC make it not worthwhile anymore. Hardly a sign of a slow down due to "financial problems"

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:44 pm 
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dtc wrote:
You will see more places in the core where they tear down blocks of the 1950s/1960s houses and throw up high rises.


Fat chance. Those shitty homes are worth $850,000 each today. (probably double that in the next 15 years)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:51 pm 
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RichardAndLiz wrote:
dtc wrote:
You will see more places in the core where they tear down blocks of the 1950s/1960s houses and throw up high rises.


Fat chance. Those shitty homes are worth $850,000 each today. (probably double that in the next 15 years)


Nope. $850,000 for one house or 1,500 units x $450,000 in condos. Do the math. ;) Eventually those houses need to be torn down and rebuilt. How many homes are still standing from the 1910s,1920s? When you go to ask permission to rebuild another detached house on the lot, you will be denied.

Look up the government intensification guidelines and you will see.. they aren't approving low rise anymore. They want dense urban areas with lots of people per sq/m.

Here is some reading:

http://torontorealestatemarket.net/tag/intensification/

Quote:
New development must follow the rules. Growth in the GTA is dictated by provincial policy, including the ban of development on the green belt and the Places to Grow guidelines. These policies call for the region’s growth to take place through intensification, which means the GTA must grow up through highrise development and not out through lowrise development.

And while “up not out” seems like a logical approach, there may be some unintended consequences.

What happens if you can’t build enough new housing?

We need approximately 40,000 units per year to keep pace with the region’s population growth. RealNet’s research shows lowrise supplies are currently at a record low level of 6,819 units and shrinking, while purpose-built rental buildings are almost nonexistent. This means the rest of the demand must be fulfilled by highrise development, but the challenge lies in capacity.

Based on RealNet’s tracking, the GTA’s entire highrise development industry working at full capacity over the last five years have not been able to produce more than 15,789 units in a given year.

Undersupply may be a real possibility for the GTA, and that might have unintended consequences of upward pressure on prices.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:54 pm 
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dtc wrote:
RichardAndLiz wrote:
dtc wrote:
You will see more places in the core where they tear down blocks of the 1950s/1960s houses and throw up high rises.


Fat chance. Those shitty homes are worth $850,000 each today. (probably double that in the next 15 years)


Nope. $850,000 for one house or 1,500 units x $450,000 in condos. Do the math. ;) Eventually those houses need to be torn down and rebuilt. How many homes are still standing from the 1910s,1920s? When you go to ask permission to rebuild another detached house on the lot, you will be denied.

Look up the government intensification guidelines and you will see.. they aren't approving low rise anymore. They want dense urban areas with lots of people per sq/m.

Here is some reading:

http://torontorealestatemarket.net/tag/intensification/

Quote:
New development must follow the rules. Growth in the GTA is dictated by provincial policy, including the ban of development on the green belt and the Places to Grow guidelines. These policies call for the region’s growth to take place through intensification, which means the GTA must grow up through highrise development and not out through lowrise development.

And while “up not out” seems like a logical approach, there may be some unintended consequences.

What happens if you can’t build enough new housing?

We need approximately 40,000 units per year to keep pace with the region’s population growth. RealNet’s research shows lowrise supplies are currently at a record low level of 6,819 units and shrinking, while purpose-built rental buildings are almost nonexistent. This means the rest of the demand must be fulfilled by highrise development, but the challenge lies in capacity.

Based on RealNet’s tracking, the GTA’s entire highrise development industry working at full capacity over the last five years have not been able to produce more than 15,789 units in a given year.

Undersupply may be a real possibility for the GTA, and that might have unintended consequences of upward pressure on prices.


the point I was making was joe blow that owns the old house worth a million dollars downtown isnt going to sell it for chump change. Owning a home in downtown Toronto is a gold mine. Its going to be only condos or renting for the average person from now on. And even condos are getting ridiculously priced. Its going to be strictly renting as the only way to live downtown for a newbie.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:13 pm 
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I love this thread. It's the same thing for 96 pages. I just want to be part of it before it reaches 100.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:45 pm 
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Dabills wrote:
sure DTC, but if people arent using Helocs for discretionary spending as much wont it contribute to a slow down in consumer spending.

helocs pay for cars, renos.


Hmmmm HELOC's dropped around the time car manufacturers and home improvement companies (Home Depot, Sears etc.) started offering 0% loans. Sounds pretty normal. Everyone trying for the cheapest interest costs.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:50 pm 
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Dabills wrote:
commuting sucks. i think the middle class will always be able to get a semi in a field in Milton if they want it.


How far away from Mississauga is Milton? How many corporate head office's are there in Mississauga? I believe at least 60 of the fortune 500 are there -- for now.. it will increase as the cost to do business (and pay employees to live) in Toronto increases.

http://www.mississauga.ca/file//COM/Fortune_500.pdf

Generally what happens is that new cities are formed and new hubs of employment created. Eventually Mississauga will become the new Toronto as more and more corporations move operations there. This is the point that Milton becomes one of the more desired places to live thanks to it's close proximity to Mississauga.

Mississauga and Vaughan... the top two growing cities in Ontario for both population and jobs. Anything in the vicinity will be prime real estate. Don't forget, Vaughan is already approved for a TTC subway line. Imagine the potential! :)

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article ... ve-toronto

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:49 am 
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Dabills wrote:
Love Richard and Liz, its only condos or renting now for anybody else that lives past this point.

I agree that downtown core housing will always be more expensive and so it should be. But to think those 850K dumps are going to be worth twice as much in 15 years in real terms is a great example of the bubble we are living in.

those lineups for village homes are scary, would hate to end up like this, must be a sickening feeling in some ways.

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/08/29/386848 ... atrick.net


Its not a bubble. My dad bought a home in downtown Toronto in the 70's for $11,000. People make more now and houses cost more. The way it works is if more people are making more money, they can pay more for things and the price goes up. If people arent making more in their jobs, while others around them are, they will be left in the dust.

Stay in school! lol Dont drop out for the allure of the quick buck in some dead end job.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:10 am 
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But in real terms look at today. $850,000 townhomes in downtown Toronto, and theyre going up, alot more than that. One day it will go down 10%, but not before it goes up 100%... and several months after that 10% dip, it will go back up 30%...

Im talking GTA.

Call it a bubble or whatever, but its reality. Im not sure why you keep saying its a bubble. You cant get a discount when you buy a home by saying its a bubble, or a cheaper rate at the bank. Home prices are going up overall. I call it reality. You call it a bubble. Who cares what its called. Home prices will cost more tomorrow than they do today. (In the GTA)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:12 am 
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Dabills wrote:
Access to large amounts of credit with little down payments and long ammortizations is the difference. Along with our expectation that houses are investments and not homes. Psychology and mass acceptance has fueled this to. Is it a bubble? I believe so in certain areas, not country wide though.


Ohhhhhhhhhhhh....why didn't someone say that earlier? :roll:

This isn't an interesting conversation, as you say, when you just keep repeating the same thing over and over and over again. Isn't it time to move on?

I'm starting to think you have a goal of keeping this at the top of HV topics list in some kind of attempt to drive prices down so you can buy a house again. :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:29 am 
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Dabills wrote:
We aren't making more though Richard in relation to house prices. What was your fathers income in the 70's. Was that house bought 4-6 times his annual income? I doubt it.

Access to large amounts of credit with little down payments and long ammortizations is the difference. Along with our expectation that houses are investments and not homes. Psychology and mass acceptance has fueled this to. Is it a bubble? I believe so in certain areas, not country wide though.


Source: Annual earnings in manufacturing industries, production and other workers, by sex, Canada, 1905, 1910 and 1917 to 1975

My parents bought a semi-detached home for around $38,000 in Brampton in 1972. In 1972 the average annual earnings in Canada was $7,224. It was a single income household. The average mortgage rate was 7.44%. They sold in 1985 for $99,000.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:58 am 
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lucyna wrote:
I love this thread. It's the same thing for 96 pages. I just want to be part of it before it reaches 100.


i want in as well!


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